{"id":71054,"date":"2021-02-16T11:43:10","date_gmt":"2021-02-16T16:43:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/2021\/02\/16\/interviews-with-black-pastors\/"},"modified":"2025-07-22T09:56:03","modified_gmt":"2025-07-22T13:56:03","slug":"interviews-with-black-pastors","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/religion\/2021\/02\/16\/interviews-with-black-pastors\/","title":{"rendered":"9. Interviews with Black pastors"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Black pastors hold a storied place in American history. During the eras of slavery and racial segregation, they played pivotal roles in Black communal efforts to \u201cuplift the race\u201d (a phrase commonly used in the 19th and 20th centuries). This often included organizing job training, after-school mentoring, insurance collectives, athletic clubs and other community service programs through their churches in addition to leading protests against racial discrimination. The achievements of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and other clergy during the civil rights movement rank among the most celebrated efforts in this realm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Indeed, King\u2019s successes are so well known that they may have fostered a misperception that <em>all <\/em>Black clergy were bold civil rights activists. In reality, many Black clergy did not support King\u2019s approach during his lifetime. (See <a href=\"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/religion\/2021\/02\/16\/a-brief-overview-of-black-religious-history-in-the-u-s\">Chapter 10<\/a> for more on Black American religious history.) Still, it is clearly the case that King and a number of other Black pastors played central roles in the civil rights protests of the 1950s and 1960s, and that they are remembered today for their personal courage and effective leadership. Perhaps partly as a result, the new survey finds that a plurality of Black Americans (47%) believe that predominantly Black churches are less influential now than they were 50 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Pew Research Center sought the views of current Black clergy on this perceived decline in influence, along with other issues raised by the survey, through in-depth interviews conducted as a supplement to the survey of more than 8,600 Black Americans. Researchers at the Center spoke with 30 Black Christian clergy, most of them in senior leadership roles in congregations across the country. Although they are not representative of the opinions of all Black clergy, the interviews gave some close observers of American religious life an opportunity to discuss their experiences at greater length and in a more conversational format than the nationally representative survey.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Most of the interviews were conducted before COVID-19 closed or limited the capacities of houses of worship and prior to the protests that broke out when a Minneapolis police officer killed George Floyd. Those topics did arise in some of the later interviews and in some follow-up interviews.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Though there was a standard set of initial questions, pastors were permitted to veer from the script in the natural flow of conversations. Their answers can be summarized in four main themes:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image alignright size-200-wide\"><a href=\"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/religion\/2021\/02\/16\/interviews-with-black-pastors\/pf_02-16-21_black-religion-10-png\/\"><img data-dominant-color=\"e9e9e9\" data-has-transparency=\"false\" style=\"--dominant-color: #e9e9e9;\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\"  srcset=\"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/20\/2021\/02\/PF_02.16.21_black.religion-10-.png?resize=400,962 400w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 480px) 480px, (max-width: 782px) 782px, 640px\" height=\"481\" width=\"200\" src=\"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/20\/2021\/02\/PF_02.16.21_black.religion-10-.png?w=400\" alt=\"Denominational breakdown of the 30 pastors interviewed\" class=\"wp-image-82191 not-transparent\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>The pastors express great pride in the history of the Black Church, both in its historically central place in many Black communities and in the historical role of pastors as leaders in Black communities.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><span style=\"color: var(--wp--preset--color--ui-text-color);font-family: var(--wp--preset--font-family--georgia);font-size: revert\">The pastors generally agree that their influence, and that of their churches, in their local communities has declined in recent decades. They offered a variety of reasons, including less social activism by Black clergy, growing secularism and the consequent fraying of ties between young adults and churches, gentrification of urban neighborhoods and the departure of many congregants to less densely settled suburbs, and scandals that they feel have tainted the reputations of clergy of all races.<\/span><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><span style=\"color: var(--wp--preset--color--ui-text-color);font-family: var(--wp--preset--font-family--georgia);font-size: var(--wp--preset--font-size--small)\">Many of the pastors have changed key elements of their church services, seeking to attract young adults without alienating older congregants. This has affected the average length of services, dress codes, the kind of music played at services, preaching styles, and other aspects of worship. (In addition, the coronavirus has led to more participation in virtual services for younger and older adults alike.)<\/span><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The pastors generally are optimistic that the Black Church will survive the institutional challenges it faces, saying no other institution has risen to take on its historic role. In addition, some think that polarization of national politics in recent years has led Black people who previously worshipped at multiracial churches to decide they belong in predominantly Black churches.<br><figure><a href=\"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/religion\/2021\/02\/16\/interviews-with-black-pastors\/pf_02-16-21_black-religion-10\/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-34387\"><\/a><\/figure><\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Most of the clergy interviewed belong to historically Black Protestant denominations. Unlike other Christian denominations that have Black people in them, these historically Black Protestant denominations have central leaderships that are composed almost entirely of African Americans and typically promote social agendas focusing on Black populations. Because there also are Black priests and ministers in the Roman Catholic Church and other Protestant denominations, some clergy in those groups were also interviewed. The rest of this chapter summarizes the conversations that took place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 data-is-section=\"true\" data-wp-context=\"{&quot;id&quot;:&quot;1-pastors-express-great-pride-in-the-history-of-the-black-church&quot;}\" data-wp-interactive=\"{&quot;namespace&quot;:&quot;prc-block\\\/table-of-contents&quot;}\" id=\"1-pastors-express-great-pride-in-the-history-of-the-black-church\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">1. Pastors express great pride in the history of the Black Church<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The pastors spoke proudly of \u201cthe Black Church,\u201d generally using that term to refer to predominantly Black churches in the collective sense: thousands of churches across the country, led by Black pastors in historically Black Protestant denominations, that have long fought for Black Americans\u2019 well-being, both spiritually and in the physical world.[19. numoffset=&#8221;19&#8243; Although the phrase \u201cthe Black Church\u201d has been used by generations of scholars as well as clergy, some writers have cautioned against its possible implication that Black churches are monolithic and formally unified. For example, see Savage, Barbara Dianne. 2008. \u201cYour Spirits Walk Beside Us: The Politics of Black Religion.\u201d She writes, \u201cDespite common usage, there is no such thing as the \u2018Black church.\u2019 \u2026 The concept imposes the notion of a unified command, a national entity, a papal-like authority that does not and has never existed.\u201d]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the past, many of the pastors said, predominantly Black churches were \u201cone-stop shopping\u201d for Black communities \u2013 places where, in addition to worship, Black people could have rich social lives shielded from the degradations of racism that pervaded the wider society.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cFor many years, Black culture was centered around the church,\u201d said Bishop Talbert W. Swan II, senior pastor of Spring of Hope Church of God in Christ in Springfield, Massachusetts. \u201cAnd I think that\u2019s something that is very unique about the Black Church and Black religion that is not necessarily true for all other communities.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Another pastor, the Rev. Christine A. Smith, senior pastor of Restoration Ministries of Greater Cleveland, Inc., a Baptist church in Euclid, Ohio, put it this way: \u201cHistorically, [for African Americans,] the Black Church has been the only institution that we have controlled consistently. It has been the only institution where, consistently, we\u2019ve had a platform and we can make our voices heard strongly. \u2026 It has been a point of solace, of empowerment, of education, of camaraderie, of fellowship, and networking and opportunity.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One widely cited role of predominantly Black churches was to provide opportunities for Black people to hold leadership roles at a time when such positions were largely unavailable elsewhere in society \u2013 and at the top of the church hierarchy was the pastor.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cIn the Black Church, the pastor was the hero, the moral leader \u2026 the freest, because they didn\u2019t work for companies in society,\u201d said the Rev. William N. Heard, senior pastor of Kaighn Avenue Baptist Church in Camden, New Jersey. \u201cThey worked for \u2018the Church,\u2019 so they were the freest voice.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Laypeople could also take on significant roles at church, roles that lent them stature, said the Rev. Sandra Reed, senior pastor of St. Mark AME Zion Church in Newtown, Pennsylvania: \u201cChurch was everything to the African American because it was a place where <em>any<\/em>body could be <em>some<\/em>body.&nbsp;Church became that place where Mr. Smith wasn\u2019t just Mr. Smith, he was \u2018Mr. Smith the trustee.\u2019 \u2026 It wasn\u2019t just, \u2018I have a position,\u2019 it was \u2018I have a position with <em>power<\/em>,\u2019 because Mr. Smith could do something that he could never have done anywhere else before. When he walked in a bank, the bank knew that was Mr. Smith, the trustee from the AME Zion Church.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several pastors cited the emotional, energizing experiences of worship services at predominantly Black churches as another benefit they gave to their communities. They cited the \u201ccall and response\u201d style of sermon, in which congregants shout praise (\u201cAmen!\u201d) and encouragement (\u201cYou tell it, preacher!\u201d) to pastors during their sermons, and what\u2019s called the \u201cwhooping\u201d (pronounced \u201chooping\u201d) style of preaching, in which pastors\u2019 voices take on distinct cadences in celebration of Jesus.[20. A 2013 <a href=\"https:\/\/believermag.com\/the-man-with-the-million-dollar-voice\/\">article<\/a> in The Believer magazine described \u201cwhooping\u201d as follows: \u201cThe whooped sermon is divided in two, the first part intended to appeal to the congregation\u2019s intellect, the second \u2014 the whoop proper \u2014 to its emotions.&nbsp;\u2026 Having given his audience an intellectual grasp of the sermon\u2019s lesson, the preacher whoops it home. His voice rises in pitch, volume, and intensity to a hoarse chant that falls into a set rhythm and a single musical key. He is singing his words now \u2014 and groaning, howling, screaming them. Prowling the sanctuary \u2026 whipping the members into a frenzy. Inevitably, some go into paroxysms, and ushers or white-suited nurses rush over to attend to them. Throughout the sermon, parishioners answer the minister with shouts, whipping&nbsp;him&nbsp;up.\u201d]&nbsp;In their interviews, some of the pastors tied the atmosphere at these services to the healing role they said their churches have played as gathering places for an oppressed population to express emotion, often through shouting or crying during services.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>\u201c<\/strong>How does an oppressed people express their oppression?\u201d asked the Rev. Phil Manuel Turner, senior pastor of Bethany Baptist Church in Syracuse, New York. \u201cYou\u2019re going to see an outsized expression. Our services serve as a grounds where people can openly cry and openly express a breakthrough. They are more exuberant. &#8230; Where else can you express how hard things have been? Where else can you have an outburst without people assuming you\u2019re insane?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some of the clergy interviewed in this chapter lead predominantly Black churches in denominations that are not historically Black, such as the Roman Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, or the United Church of Christ. These pastors said their churches <em>do<\/em> have numerous Black religious traditions, such as calling out \u201camen\u201d during services or having ushers wear white. At the same time, their priorities as clergy tend to reflect those of their denominations, which are less centered around the experiences of Black Americans than is typical for historically Black Protestant denominations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Rev. Desmond Drummer, pastor of Most Blessed Sacrament Catholic Church in South Fulton, Georgia, said, \u201cWe are firmly in the tradition of the proverbial \u2018Black Church,\u2019 because people who are descendants of slaves are in our church.\u201d On the other hand, he said, \u201cBlack clergy at a Catholic church are&nbsp;<i>never&nbsp;<\/i>presumed to be committed exclusively to the Black population alone, or the pan-African population alone. And that shapes the way we engage the world.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-style-callout has-ui-beige-very-light-background-color has-background is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<h3 data-is-section=\"true\" data-wp-context=\"{&quot;id&quot;:&quot;sidebar-pastors-say-women-face-obstacles-in-becoming-senior-pastors-at-black-churches-though-most-black-americans-say-they-should-be-allowed-to-lead&quot;}\" data-wp-interactive=\"{&quot;namespace&quot;:&quot;prc-block\\\/table-of-contents&quot;}\" class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"sidebar-pastors-say-women-face-obstacles-in-becoming-senior-pastors-at-black-churches-though-most-black-americans-say-they-should-be-allowed-to-lead\">Sidebar: Pastors say women face obstacles in becoming senior pastors at Black churches, though most Black Americans say they should be allowed to lead<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It is rare for women to be the senior pastor at predominantly Black churches, especially large ones, according to the clergy interviewed for this chapter. While women commonly manage church committees and take on other important roles, only a small minority of senior pastors at predominantly Black churches are women, they said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cWe do have some very successful African American pastors who are pastoring larger congregations, but those women are the exception, not the rule,\u201d said the Rev. Christine A. Smith, senior pastor of Restoration Ministries of Greater Cleveland, Inc., a Baptist church in Euclid, Ohio.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Seven of the 30 pastors interviewed in this chapter were women. They said that within Black Christian communities, women often struggle for acceptance as church leaders. \u201cWe are a culture that has historically put more value in the men\u2019s voice,\u201d said the Rev. Dr. Erika D. Crawford, who is both senior pastor at Mount Zion AME Church in Dover, Delaware, and president of the AME\u2019s Commission on Women in Ministry. \u201cPeople still see men as leaders and women as followers.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That said, in our nationally representative survey of Black Americans, the vast majority of respondents (86%) say they believe women should be allowed to serve as the senior religious leader of a congregation, while 12% say they should not. Large majorities of both Black men (84%) and Black women (87%) say they approve of women as senior religious leaders.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Still, it is rare for women to be hired to lead churches with more than a few dozen parishioners, said the Rev. Crawford. \u201cI have seen women overlooked for promotions. I have seen women removed from pulpits in churches for things that men do all the time. I have seen women who are qualified and prepared not get appointments.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In 2019 to 2020, Black women comprised about half of Black enrollment for master\u2019s degrees at seminaries in the United States, up from around a third in 1989 and 1990, according to data provided by the Association of Theological Schools.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Of the major historically Black Protestant denominations, the AME Zion Church was the first to ordain women, in 1894. Two other Black Methodist denominations, the AME Church and the Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, followed suit in 1948 and 1954, respectively. Baptist denominations have traditionally ordained fewer women (and they are harder to track through time because of the independent nature of Baptist churches). The Church of God in Christ does not ordain women as pastors. Outside these historically Black Protestant denominations, women can be pastors in the United Methodist Church, the Episcopal Church, and several other mainline Protestant denominations.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<h3 data-is-section=\"true\" data-wp-context=\"{&quot;id&quot;:&quot;two-the-pastors-feel-their-influence-has-declined-in-recent-decades&quot;}\" data-wp-interactive=\"{&quot;namespace&quot;:&quot;prc-block\\\/table-of-contents&quot;}\" class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"two-the-pastors-feel-their-influence-has-declined-in-recent-decades\">2. The pastors feel their influence has declined in recent decades<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">A commonly expressed view during the interviews was that Black pastors\u2019 influence in African American communities has been declining since the civil rights movement.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">To explain this, the pastors offered a variety of reasons, among them: declining social activism by Black clergy, growing secularism in society, the increasing gentrification of urban areas and scandals that have implicated clergy across racial and religious boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Less emphasis on social justice<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several of the pastors we interviewed said there is less social and political activism in their ranks than was the case decades ago, at least in part because it has proven harder since the civil rights movement for Black pastors to stake out positions in common.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cThe pressures of the society are not as overt as they were,\u201d said Dr. W. Franklyn Richardson, senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Mount Vernon, New York, \u201cand the church\u2019s response to an overt oppression is different than the current situation \u2013 where we still have racism, but it is more systemic and less overt than it historically has been.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Still, many of those interviewed said that Black pastors as a group have not vigilantly stayed on the frontlines of the latest struggles against racism. While many Black pastors have supported protests related to the killing of George Floyd, for example, they have not been at the forefront of these protests, the pastors said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cWhen you look at Black Lives Matter, this is the first time that there has been any political uprising and the church isn\u2019t spearheading it,\u201d said the Rev. Harvey L. Vaughn III, senior pastor of Bethel AME Church in San Diego, California. \u201cThis is a new thing. The church was not ready for that. \u2026 A lot of church people just criticized it: \u2018These young people don\u2019t move the way we used to.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">He continued, \u201cWhen you look at the violence being perpetuated against Black people, traditionally the Black Church has stood up and spoken out.\u201d In this interview, conducted prior to the killing of George Floyd, he said, \u201cwe\u2019ve had a lot of incidents where police officers have beaten or killed unarmed Black people, and the church has been silent.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They had never given up protesting completely. But Black pastors are showing up to rallies and marches less often than they used to, many of the pastors said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cIt\u2019s not [as common] as it once was,\u201d said Dr. Benjamin Hinton, senior pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Gastonia, North Carolina. \u201cAfter the civil rights and integration movement there hasn\u2019t really been as much, and I can speak of this community, there\u2019s not a heavy political involvement, not as much as it should be or as much as it was in the past.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Rev. Dr. Cheryl J. Sanders, senior pastor of Third Street Church of God in Washington, D.C., said that \u201cin the \u201960s, you had maybe a high-water mark of political and social influence of religious leaders with the civil rights movement. We still have people like William Barber who is still essentially carrying out the same agenda as Martin Luther King Jr. in a very public way. I don\u2019t want to <em>over<\/em>state the decline of the Black minister, but the civil rights movement had a certain kind of face to it. The vanguard was religious leaders, and that has changed.\u201d[21. The Rev. Dr. William J. Barber II, senior pastor of Greenleaf Christian Church in Goldsboro, North Carolina, is co-chair of the Poor People\u2019s Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival, an organization that advocates \u201cfederal and state living-wage laws, equity in education, an end of mass incarceration, a single-payer health care system, and the protection of the right to vote.\u201d Cobb, Jelani. May 7, 2018. \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/magazine\/2018\/05\/14\/william-barber-takes-on-poverty-and-race-in-the-age-of-trump\">William Barber takes on poverty and race in the age of Trump<\/a>.\u201d The New Yorker.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">While they acknowledge being less activist than their predecessors, many of the pastors say they remain deeply immersed in community activities. Most of the pastors interviewed cited their involvement in at least one of the following: working to reduce homelessness, feeding the hungry, registering voters or having their church buy land to develop for affordable housing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Patrick D. Clayborn, senior pastor of Bethel AME Church in Baltimore, Maryland, said, \u201cIn terms of engagement, we haven\u2019t marched in protests\u201d as much as previous generations of Black pastors, \u201cbut we have been doing things like voter registration, things like having political forums where we invite candidates running for office, feeding the hungry. We have a soup kitchen and feeding program; we serviced 100 people yesterday. \u2026 We are trying to meet needs and speak to certain issues, and make sure we are activating people at least to take the power to the ballot.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">(In a follow-up interview in October 2020, he said he thought the killing of George Floyd earlier in the year, combined with societal inequities associated with COVID-19, had led to \u201can increase in churches \u2026 taking a more vocal stance\u201d advocating for Black communities. Other pastors who were recontacted offered similar views.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some pastors said their weekly sermons are their main method to address problems in society. The Rev. Simeon Spencer, senior pastor of Union Baptist Church in Trenton, New Jersey, said, \u201cAm I out in the street protesting all the time? Not all the time, but I do go. I can tell you what \u2013 there\u2019s not a single Sunday that my preaching is not in some way a form of protest against anything that I believe to be injustice.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several worried that too many Black pastors have devoted themselves and their churches more to the \u201cprosperity gospel,\u201d which links strong faith to financial success and good health, than to the traditional \u201cprophetic role\u201d \u2013 that is, alerting society to injustices that angered God, in the style of biblical prophets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>\u201c<\/em>Prior to the \u201980s, the role of the pastor was more prophetic,\u201d said Dr. James C. Perkins, senior pastor of Greater Christ Baptist Church in Detroit, Michigan. \u201cThe church would speak out on political issues, issues of economic justice and injustice, racism and so forth. And I think now there\u2019s much more emphasis on prosperity than there is on prophetic ministry. Unfortunately, that\u2019s just the way it is.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">(In a follow-up interview in September 2020, Perkins speculated that the pastors who preached the prosperity gospel are less likely to do so due to the COVID-19 pandemic. \u201cTheir message doesn\u2019t seem to resonate with the real-life experiences that we\u2019re having right now,\u201d he said.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The demands of maintaining membership in an age of declining affiliation are another reason there is less activism by clergy, according to one of the pastors interviewed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cBecause church membership is declining, we\u2019ve put a lot of emphasis on membership, and you can\u2019t do all things well at the same time,\u201d said the Rev. Sandra Reed of St. Mark AME Zion Church in Newtown, Pennsylvania. \u201cSo I think we\u2019re not as bold and courageous as we used to be. I have to say, I\u2019m somewhat ashamed of that, because the AME Zion Church is known as the Freedom Church that was at the forefront of addressing all the ills of America, and we sort of lost that. I am trying hard to teach the young ministers coming behind me the importance of making sure they are the voice that the world can hear.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Growing secularism resulting in low levels of attachment to churches by young adults<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Another reason their influence has declined, several pastors said, is because Americans of all racial backgrounds are collectively less religious than they used to be, based on measures such as affiliation and attendance at religious services.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cI think the great change of America is, we\u2019ve become a secular society,\u201d said Dr. Richardson of Mount Vernon, New York.[22. Richardson is also chairman of the Conference of National Black Churches. He served as a member of the advisory board for this report.]&nbsp;\u201cA lot of people have dismissed religion to a large degree.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Warren H. Stewart Sr., senior pastor of First Institutional Baptist Church in Phoenix, Arizona, said, \u201cI saw it happening to the White mainline churches 30 or 40 years ago. I saw it and <em>never<\/em> thought it could happen to the Black Church, because the Black Church has been a leader in civil rights, human rights, etc. But it\u2019s hitting all of us.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One pastor, citing declining religious affiliation, shared his observation that fewer young parents are instilling churchgoing habits in their children, perhaps because the parents themselves never had those habits when they were children.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Hinton of Gastonia, North Carolina, said he has noticed that over the years, youth recreational groups have increasingly scheduled their activities for Sundays. He sees proof of this through his windshield on his Sunday morning drive to church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cI ride by baseball parks, and the park is filled before 8 o\u2019clock,\u201d he said. \u201cHere are these hundreds of people at the baseball field \u2026 so these kids are not in church. You got more people at one of these things than in a church.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">To him, it means that too many parents \u201care not putting a demand on their household, a mandate on their families, that \u2018we are going to church,\u2019 or \u2018church is a priority, church is a must.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Gentrification in U.S. cities<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Increased gentrification in urban areas was commonly cited as another challenge to the standing of Black pastors. Many of the pastors interviewed said it has led to higher property values and rents that force lower-income residents \u2013 including members of predominantly Black churches \u2013 to move away. While some congregants who have moved to the suburbs still drive back to the cities for religious services, others join suburban churches. And the higher property values lead more and more predominantly Black churches to sell their old buildings and decamp to the suburbs, where their new buildings are less central to their communities than they were in their prior, urban neighborhoods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As for churches that remain in the cities, the higher property values make it impossible for churches to buy parking lots, the pastors said, which means congregants who commute on Sundays often struggle to park on busy city streets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cThe issue is parking,\u201d said the Rev. Sandra Reed of St. Mark AME Zion Church in Pennsylvania. \u201cIf you have an older generation of members, they\u2019re not going to walk to park their car and walk to church and walk back to their car. What do you do when you can\u2019t park in front of your church, and you\u2019re 60 or 70 years old?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">She continued, \u201cOne of my colleagues, at an AME church, had a beautiful church in center city Philadelphia. She sold it because her members were driving around the block for 15, 20 minutes looking for a parking space and couldn\u2019t find it and went home.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Scandals<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yet another reason they are less influential now, many of the 30 pastors we interviewed said, is because a slew of clergy scandals hurt the collective reputations of men and women of the cloth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Rev. Christine A. Smith of Restoration Ministries of Greater Cleveland, Inc., in Euclid, Ohio, said this is true regardless of a pastor\u2019s denomination or race.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cWhen you look at what happened in the Catholic Church with the scandal with the priests, and some of the things that have happened recently, not just African American pastors, but megachurches\u2019 pastors, or saying the Lord tells them to buy a $55 million jet, these are the kinds of things that undermine people\u2019s faith in the church,\u201d she said. \u201cThere was a time when the church was such a major authority in the hearts and minds of people, but these things have chipped away at that to some degree.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Hinton said he has thought a lot recently about how the public view of pastors has declined in this regard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cI think there has been a shift, if you will, in some communities, in some circles,\u201d he said. \u201cIt\u2019s nothing like it was. Pastors were highly reverent, highly respected, and I think with all the various scandals and the moral lapses and shifts in our community, it has tainted the image, the respect, the roles. \u2026 They think that all we want is the money or the self-image.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 data-is-section=\"true\" data-wp-context=\"{&quot;id&quot;:&quot;3-pastors-have-changed-key-components-of-their-church-services&quot;}\" data-wp-interactive=\"{&quot;namespace&quot;:&quot;prc-block\\\/table-of-contents&quot;}\" id=\"3-pastors-have-changed-key-components-of-their-church-services\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">3. Pastors have changed key components of their church services<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">With their congregations graying, the pastors expressed their long-felt need to bring younger adults into their churches. Making them welcome, though, comes with its challenges. Many described walking a fine line to make young adults feel welcome without driving away the older congregants who tend to be their most devoted members.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For the Rev. Dr. Erika D. Crawford, senior pastor at Mount Zion AME Church in Dover, Delaware, that balance includes ensuring that two people under 50 are always on the board. The average age of her congregants is 70, and she said she reminds them that \u201cif you don\u2019t get in a significant amount of people who are under 50 years old, in 10 or 20 years everyone here will be dead and there will be no church.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The problem that needs to be managed, she and the other pastors said, is that young adults tend to have different preferences than older congregants. Where this plays out most often is in the tenor of worship services: how long they last, what people wear, what music is played and the pastor\u2019s preaching style.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Shorter services<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several of the pastors said young Black adults prefer shorter services than are often typical at predominantly Black churches, both because they have shorter attention spans and because they want to do other things on their Sundays.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cWe used to have two Sunday services, 8 and 11,\u201d said Dr. Benjamin Hinton of Tabernacle Baptist Church in Gastonia, North Carolina. \u201cNow we have just a 9:30 service, and then they\u2019re free. \u2026 I try to get them out by 11:30, instead of 1 o\u2019clock. They can go to restaurants, beat the line and at least feel like they have a full afternoon for family, fun or recreation.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Another pastor, Dr. Warren H. Stewart of First Institutional Baptist Church in Phoenix, Arizona, said that in a nod to young people\u2019s sensibilities, he shortened one of his two Sunday services. \u201cWe know the younger generation doesn\u2019t want to stay at services too long,\u201d he said, \u201cso we cut the time from two hours to 75 minutes.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some pastors said that to dramatically shorten their services would upset their congregants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cIf I got up and preached 10 minutes,\u201d said Dr. Clyde Posley Jr., senior pastor of Antioch Missionary Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, \u201cmy congregation would think I wasn\u2019t feeling well.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">(In the survey, 53% of Black Protestants who attend Black churches at least a few times a year say the services typically last two hours or more.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Casual dress<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Younger adults, as a group, prefer dressing casually to wearing their Sunday best to services, the pastors said. Some said they have relaxed the dress code for at least some worship services offered by their churches.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Hinton of Gastonia, North Carolina, said he has adjusted his church\u2019s dress code for most Sundays \u2013 except the first of the month, when formal dress is still expected \u2013 to meet his younger congregants\u2019 preferences.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cEven myself, brought up in the church tradition \u2013 always suit and tie on Sunday \u2013 there are Sundays now that I\u2019ll preach without a tie, in a casual shirt,\u201d he said. \u201cI\u2019ll preach with my shirttail out \u2013 that was something that, in the Baptist church, you didn\u2019t go to church with your shirttail out. One Sunday I wore my shirttail out with my cowboy boots and my jeans. I was comfortable. That was a total image shift from the traditional church.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Rev. Sandra Reed of St. Mark AME Zion Church in Pennsylvania, said that after consulting with younger congregants, she decided that her church should add a casual, shorter service to its weekend schedule. \u201cYou can come in a 5 o\u2019clock [Saturday evening service] and be home by 6,\u201d she said. \u201cAnd you can come in in your shorts and your flip-flops. When you leave the mall, the market and the movie, you can come on by.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Music<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Musical preferences during church services form another generational fault line cited by the pastors. They say younger adults tend to prefer what is called \u201cpraise and worship\u201d music \u2013 gospel music performed in a contemporary style by a small group of singers and musicians \u2013 in contrast to older adults, who tend to prefer traditional hymns sung by a choir.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cA lot of churches have shifted away from hymns in traditional devotional services,\u201d said Dr. Hinton. \u201cIn this area, in a lot of churches they\u2019re used to singing traditional hymns. But we have different generations. We try to include the hymns but we also include praise and worship [music]. That\u2019s one of the things that has shifted.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Churches that have not tweaked or substantively changed their music programs are struggling more than churches that have, he said. \u201cWe\u2019ve had to tweak ours to reach a changing generation. Can\u2019t just be singing the old hymns. There has to be some upbeat, has to be some life, has to be some modernity.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Preaching<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The pastors said their younger congregants tend to prefer a tamer style of preaching than has been traditional in many predominantly Black churches. Some said they have altered their services to reflect young adults\u2019 preferences for what they called a \u201cteaching style\u201d of preaching, as opposed to the more emotional type of preaching (including \u201ccall and response\u201d and \u201cwhooping,\u201d referred to earlier) that have deep roots in predominantly Black churches.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cThe Millennials are moving away from emotionalism to foundational teaching,\u201d said Dr. Vernon G. Robinson, a former congregational pastor who now holds the position of presiding elder of the Batesville District of the Mississippi Conference of the AME Zion Church. \u201cThey want to understand exactly what the word of God means and how can it be applied to their life. They\u2019re not as interested in the theatrics of worship. The \u2018call and response\u2019 type of thing is not enough for them.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Posley of Indianapolis, Indiana, said that to appeal to younger adults\u2019 sensibilities, he was adding a service that reflected this, as well as younger people\u2019s musical preferences. \u201cI\u2019m going to present a different style,\u201d he said. \u201cI\u2019m going to teach rather than preach. I\u2019m going to have a guest each week. The Millennials will be able to interrupt the teaching and ask questions. I\u2019m making the music more contemporary. The service will be shorter \u2013 from 90 minutes [down] to an hour.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Virtual services<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Prior to the pandemic, many pastors said they viewed online broadcasts of services mainly as a benefit for older congregants who could not make it to church in person. But as churches began bolstering their online options in 2020 after closing their sanctuaries due to the coronavirus, younger and older congregants alike have gotten more used to logging on, the pastors said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Hinton said he has heard from younger and older congregants alike saying they watched a service online while \u201cdoing their walk around the park or working out at home, or on the deck.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cSome younger people have gotten comfortable with having not to get up as early, not having to put on church clothes,\u201d said the Dr. James C. Perkins of Greater Christ Baptist Church in Detroit, Michigan. \u201cThey <em>may<\/em> continue to access the services via livestream [after the pandemic]. We\u2019ll have to wait and see what happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>LGBT inclusion<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Several of the pastors said their younger congregants are generally more accepting of homosexuality than their older congregants, and that they walk a fine line between preaching acceptance of gay people, on the one hand, and opposing same-sex marriage, on the other. (The 2020 survey shows that young Black adults are more likely than older ones to say society should be accepting of homosexuality and that clergy should perform marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. W. Franklyn Richardson of Grace Baptist Church in Mount Vernon, New York, said he senses that younger Black adults are \u201cless theological\u201d and \u201cless doctrinal\u201d than their elders on issues concerning homosexuality. He and other pastors say this can cause tension in churches associated with historically Black Protestant denominations such as the National Baptist Convention USA, Inc.; the AME Church; and the Church of God in Christ, which formally oppose same-sex marriages or prohibit their pastors from officiating at them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For pastors, \u201cdealing with the roles of LGBT people in the church is a conundrum,\u201d Richardson said. \u201cOn the one hand, the Black Church is an advocate of civil rights and people\u2019s rights. On the other hand, the Black Church is a strict interpreter of scripture.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Black churches, he said, \u201chave traditionally had an understanding of what marriage is, that does not make it an option between a man and a man, and a woman and a woman.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Some clergy said they wished the atmosphere in Black churches was more accepting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cThe Black Church, though we get racism very well, we don\u2019t get sexism and heterosexism as readily,\u201d said the Rev. Traci C. Blackmon, associate general minister of Justice and Local Church Ministries for the United Church of Christ and formerly senior pastor of Christ the King United Church of Christ in Florissant, Missouri, a predominantly Black church. \u201cAnd [while] this younger generation is more accepting of diverse expressions of sexuality, that is not necessarily the reputation of the Black Church. So we have a ways to go with making a place for everybody at God\u2019s table.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Patrick D. Clayborn of Bethel AME Church in Baltimore, Maryland, said, \u201cI have on occasion made statements around equality, and that there should not be any judgment or bias.\u201d He continued, \u201cIt\u2019s not for us to judge and we shouldn\u2019t be in anyone\u2019s bedroom. I don\u2019t necessarily delve deeply into it. I kind of stick with the idea of not hating, not condemning someone to hell, not trying to condemn someone\u2019s life and not trying to be someone else\u2019s God, but love that person as you\u2019d want to be loved and let them make choices themselves. We can love them without needing to cast judgment.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 data-is-section=\"true\" data-wp-context=\"{&quot;id&quot;:&quot;4-the-pastors-generally-believe-the-black-church-will-survive-the-challenges-it-faces&quot;}\" data-wp-interactive=\"{&quot;namespace&quot;:&quot;prc-block\\\/table-of-contents&quot;}\" id=\"4-the-pastors-generally-believe-the-black-church-will-survive-the-challenges-it-faces\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">4. The pastors generally believe the Black Church will survive the challenges it faces<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Given all the challenges they discussed, we asked the pastors if they thought predominantly Black churches would remain viable institutions a few decades from now. Many expressed confidence that Black religious congregations <em>will<\/em>remain an important part of Black communities, even if in diminished form, due to the continued presence of racism in the United States.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cThe Black Church is in a weakened state, but I think it will still be there in 20 to 30 years,\u201d said Dr. Warren H. Stewart of First Institutional Baptist Church in Phoenix, Arizona. \u201cThere are some who believe that the Black Church has served its purpose, but I don\u2019t believe it. As long as there is racism, there will be a need for the Black Church. \u2026 Even though we don\u2019t have the influence, particularly among the young, it\u2019s still the most respected voice in the Black community.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Another pastor, the Rev. Simeon Spencer of Union Baptist Church in Trenton, New Jersey, hit on a similar theme. He said, \u201cAs long as the country continues to, on the one hand, say: \u2018There\u2019s no such thing as race and we\u2019re all one,\u2019 but on the other hand effectively live as if that is <em>not<\/em> the case, as if it <em>does<\/em> matter, then we will always seek out a faith-based place to express who we are. Black people will always need somewhere that will speak specifically to their spiritual heritage and their experience in this country.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Bishop Talbert W. Swan II of Spring of Hope Church of God in Christ in Springfield, Massachusetts, pointed to anecdotal evidence that a rise in racism and racist rhetoric over the last several years has led many Black adults to leave their multiracial churches for predominantly Black ones.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cI do see, over the last three or four years, a shifting in terms of Millennials questioning the leaderships in evangelical and other charismatic churches that have White leadership who are not speaking to the issues of systemic racism that are affecting our society today,\u201d he said. \u201cThere are some of that demographic that are leaving those churches because they\u2019re disillusioned with the fact that those leaders either avoid altogether or don\u2019t speak adequately to those issues with their congregations.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Still, some of the pastors, looking beyond 20 or 30 years, said they could foresee the possibility of further decline or even the demise of predominately Black churches, due to growing secularism or a future with less racism. And they could be OK with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cI think the Black Church will dissipate as the need for it does,\u201d said Dr. Franklyn Richardson of Grace Baptist Church in Mount Vernon, New York. \u201cIf the society becomes more holistic, where people are included, the Black Church will become less and less necessary, therefore it will become diminished. It will be just \u2018the church.\u2019 \u2026 If you get to a place where society is holistic and diversity is celebrated, and people are not cowed by racism, there will be an opportunity for the church in America to be a holistic institution.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Dr. Clyde Posley Jr. of Antioch Baptist Church in Indianapolis, Indiana, said he hopes that day will come. \u201cI don\u2019t think there <em>should<\/em> be a Black Church,\u201d he said. \u201cThere isn\u2019t a Black heaven and a White heaven. \u2026 A proper church will one day eschew the label of Black Church and be a universal church.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Black pastors hold a storied place in American history. During the eras of slavery and racial segregation, they played pivotal roles in Black communal efforts to \u201cuplift the race\u201d (a phrase commonly used in the 19th and 20th centuries). 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Focus groups: A look at how Black Americans talk about \u2018Black churches\u2019","slug":"focus-groups-a-look-at-how-black-americans-talk-about-black-churches","link":"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/religion\/2021\/02\/16\/focus-groups-a-look-at-how-black-americans-talk-about-black-churches\/","is_active":false},{"id":71141,"title":"2. Religious affiliation and congregations","slug":"religious-affiliation-and-congregations","link":"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/religion\/2021\/02\/16\/religious-affiliation-and-congregations\/","is_active":false},{"id":71129,"title":"3. Religious beliefs among Black Americans","slug":"religious-beliefs-among-black-americans","link":"https:\/\/alpha.pewresearch.org\/pewresearch-org\/religion\/2021\/02\/16\/religious-beliefs-among-black-americans\/","is_active":false},{"id":71153,"title":"4. 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